Well, I was out before the thunderstorms yesterday and the JEEP was running great. Then suddenly it starting making a pretty loud noise... sounded like it could be metal on metal with little to no variation with vehicle speed or engine speed. It was definitely coming from between the seats, which is directly above the t-case.

So, I pulled into a gas station, got out and check the driveshafts. The u-joints were tight, and didn't seem to be binding. So I pulled forward and then tried the different transfer case positions. At one point the thing wouldn't even move, and felt like something was biding up completely. But after a few minutes of playing, I got it so it would roll freely again.

I got going again, and like before, lots of noise after I got above 10-15 mph, and again it didn't seem to vary too much with vehicle speed. It definitely sounded like it was coming from the same spot, the back-end of the drivetrain, but it wouldn't do it at a speed that was slow enough to take a look when my friend was driving. Once I slowed below 10 mph, it would go away, and come back once I got back above 15 or so.

Things I know:

• Tranny, T-Case and differetial fluids were changed a month ago, and there have been no significant puddles to indicate any loss of fluids beyond the usual weeping at the tranny and t-case, and no leaks at all with the differentials.
• U-Joints had no play. Front DS spun freely, so I know I was in 2WD.
• Front hubs were definitely unlocked regardless.
• Definitely not related to engine speed, and may be related to vehicle speed.

And unfortunately I don't have a lot of options for working on this living right in downtown Portsmouth.

So any insight I could get from you all would be great... even if I have to have the work done, that's fine because I have a mechanic I trust. But I definitely would prefer to go in with a better idea of what the problems might be.

Thanks for looking!
Ian

[edit] I thought I was posting this in tech... Sorry about that. Feel free to move it to the appropriate forum! [/edit]

Ian,

From the description it sounds like it could be lots of things.... When you are driving and it's making the noise, does pushing in the clutch and continuing to roll stop or change the noise?

Rick

Rick,
Thanks for posting...
The noise doesn't stop when the clutch is in. It continued throughout shifts, and only went away once I slowed down. I just spoke with my friend who was with me at the time, and he felt the frequencey of the noise did change with vehicle speed, but not a lot... more of a subtle change.
Thanks,
Ian

One thought: Speedo cable.
I had this happen to me twice on the CJ5. From what I found the Omix replacements either were too short or my stuff to worn. Cable backs out and makes a buzzing noise. But mine was on the speedo end and the speedo bounces around like crazy until under 10 mph.
Transfer case brake problem?
Have either the tranny or transfer case been rebuilt recently?

Well, my speedo isn't attached at the speedo end. My old speedo was hooked up and didn't work. I'm pretty sure the gear in the t-case is shot. So I didn't bother hooking it up this time around. I'll check that out, though the noise sounds a lot more severe than a cable rubbing on something.

Could be...

Not that I know of. I've only had the JEEP since last August. It certainly hasn't been done since I got it. I changed all the fluids this spring, but that's been the extent of work done.

It was really strange because it came on suddenly.

Could it be as simple as maybe you have got something caught under there?
Something wrapped up and around perhaps?

Thats where I would start.

Well, I did climb under and didn't see anything...




Thanks for the input everyone. I'll see what I can come up with.

Where do you live? Sounds like a task perfectly suited for today's meet and greet... (Nice of me to invite people to your house, huh John?)

I'm going to try and swing by later today and check out that gayrog....

Cool, I won't be home this morning but I'll try to be here from 2pm on. I figured on heading down to the M&G at 4pm

I'm in Portsmouth. I don't think I'm going to be driving more than a mile or two, and I don't have the tow hitch installed on the WJ yet, so I'm definiteyl limited to where it goes. I might be able to get it down to my office where I can climb underneath it. But not until the weather clears up.

Ian,
If you need a hand, let me know. You know how to find me.

Dan,
Thanks... I appreciate that.

What's a transfer case brake?

I'm so screwed... or will be whenever I pick up my 5 from Fred.

On the output of the transfer case there is a drum brake for a parking brake. Since you need to pull the D shaft off to service it, most people don't. And since its mounted on the output shaft, its bound to get oil leaking in and crud build up.

Dan, tell me more about this 5. I heard you got yourself a bit of a project.

Ok, that's not too complicated, I can visualize it perfectly from your description. Somewhat like a pinion brake on a rock buggy, but it's a drum brake and on the tcase.

I don't know a whole lot about my project other than that fred can't wait for me to get it out of his yard. Sorry, Fred!

It's a stockish 1968 CJ5 with an F-head. It's got some ugly homemade diamond-plate floor repairs and needs some body bushings, but otherwise sounds pretty solid from what I'm told.

It's going to be an ice-cream-run and light wheeling Jeep once I get it up and running... it just needs a little engine wiring, possibly brake work, and whatever else has cropped up in the 3 years that it's been sitting at Fred's.

Bottom line is: I'm totally screwed. I'll be here with a lot of questions, and it'll be a huge hassle because I'm planning to keep it in VT. But I can't wait!

Sorry to hijack your thread, en480c4. Your 5 is awesome!

And we will answer your questions. But of course we get to pick on you along the way.

No worries...

My biggest problem is living in downtown Portsmouth. I love it here, but options for working on the JEEP are limited... especially when whatever's broken is serious enough to keep me from driving it.

I'm looking forward to digging around and figuring out what the hell is wrong so I'll be all set once the weather clears up... if it ever clears up.

Well, I'm guessing it was the e-brake because I drove it around a little more and it went away. I checked the lever that goes into the e-brake drum and it didn't seem to be attached to anything anymore, so I'm guessing it broke loose while the brake was engaged. For now I seem to have beaten it into submission, so the brake will need attention, but at least I can drive it around w/out sounding like it was about to die!

Thanks again for the input everyone.
Ian

Glad to see you're back on the road. Hope you can make it to some of our events!

I'd love to make one, and the JEEP seems like it would be up for a road trip, which is nice for a change.

Thanks again for the input.

Well, clearly I jumped the gun thinking things were worked out.

The JEEP will not move more than 2 inches forwards or backwards, regardless of transmission or transfer case position. The driveshafts turn a bit, then the whole thing binds up. I managed to get it going about 1' forward, but the sounds it made clearly told me to push it no further. So something is definitely wrong beyond the parking brake.

Any other thoughts? Strikes me as a t-case problem, but it's tough for me to tell for sure.

Not being able to hear the sounds.. or see things...
I find it hard to see how a the tranny or xfer would do the things as you've described...

Personally, I favor the parking brake being a main culprit... but what about a wheel brake also being a suspect?

hum.. I guess if the tranny or xfer had a dry/seizing bearing... that could cause similar effects..

Ah... here is an idea... put the xfer in neutral, and put the tranny in gear (and release the cltuch). Does the noise occur? If not, then... The problem is somewhere in the lower end of the xfer and potentially a wheel brake...

It the noise DOES occur, then it would be something in the transmission or upper end of the xfer case.

Well, you're right. When the transfer case is in N, and I put it in first and let out the clutch, there's no noise or problems. So that would mean it's limited to the output of the transfer case, parking brake, differentials or wheel brakes.

Thanks... that definitely helps narrow it down.

Well... and the fact that you can put the T-case in neutral shows it can be shifted, somewhat anyway... Jack it up see what spins and what doesn't. Pull the rear DS if needed.

Check your rear pinion bearings. I had a similiar issue with mine when it was in four wheel drive, or when the hubs were locked. The upper pinion bearing in my front axle was shot, and it would bind up the driveshaft when it spun.

Pull the rear Dshaft. Pull the parking brake off. Throw everything in gear and see if it makes noise. Roll Jeep and see if it makes noise.

That's the plan for tomorrow...
I'm going to jack it up and verify it's a front or rear problem. If the front wheels won't turn, then it's probably the hack-job the previous owner did on the brake swap. If the back won't turn, I'll pull the drive shaft and see if I can get things squared away.

Thanks again for the help everyone!

Well, I got motivated this evening...

• Jacked the front, both wheels spun freely.
• Jacked the rear, and was able to track the binding to the parking brake.

A little more exploration shows the entire parking brake assembly is free inside the drum, and doesn't seem to be attached to anything. I couldn't tell this before because the DS wouldn't move when the rear was on the ground, so there was no way to get the "guts" of the brake to move around.

I managed to get the DS detached, and the u-joint flange of the parking brake drum, but that's as far as I got. It was starting to get dark, and there was a nut holding the drum on that looked to be maybe 1", and the largest socket or open-ended wrench I had was 3/4". But the JEEP rolled freely with the DS removed, so I'm pretty confident the problem has been tracked down.

So tomorrow morning I'm hoping to track down the tools I'll need, and I'll finish disassembling the brake. My current plan is to just pull the guts of the brake for now, test it and make sure it drives fine. Then, when I have a chance to get to a nice place to work, rebuild the parking brake assembly.

So, again, thanks. All this stuff is new to me, and it's great having such a knowledgable group so willing to offer advice.

Ian

You'll want to drain the gear oil out of the transfer case first, because rear output shaft seal rides on the inside of the rear companion flange/yoke. Otherwise You'll get all kinds of oil coming out around the output shaft.

A bunch of us will be in Dover tomorrow if you get stuck.

That's disappointing! Though it's clearly better knowing that going in. Especially considering I'm doing this in the parking lot at the office.



Thanks. I'm hoping it will go smoothly once I get going. I just need to pick up a few things in the morning.

Wow! That parking brake was a mess!!!
The whole thing had broken free inside the drum, and as a result, things were all over the place. One of the springs was about twice as long as it should've been. And it was full of gunk.
So, while I am currently without a parking brake, it is driving much better... better than it has in months.
Thanks again!
Ian

Since I have my drivetrain propped up on my front bumper as I'm rebuilding the overdrive, I decided to pull my drum and the shoes were toast. Looks like I'll be ordering some new shoes myself!

Considering the whole inside of mine was junk, I trashed it all. I'll be picking up the replacement kit from Herm the Overdrive Guy...



Seems pretty reasonable, and I've heard nothing but good things about Herm.

New shoes are ~$25, drum is ~$30-$35 so you're pretty close for the whole package. Herm is a decent guy. Got two dual MC kits from him.

[anti -ebrake rant mode ON]
see! this is just one more reason why I have no faith in that e-brake mish-mosh!!!
The junk is just a pain to maintain for the value/security blanket it adds.

My mind set... If you already know item 'X' doesn't work... then you are more likely to keep the important stuff properly maintained and working.

I have never used an e-brake in any vehicle I've driven. I never rely on the fact that I could use it, to stop a vehicle, should I need to. In the vehciles I've driven they've either been rusted solid, or not functional (due to missing parts, or out of adjustment) and on the rare occation they were set, it was a real pain to release them.

I have parked many a manual shift truck on steep hills, and it was always in the same place when I returned.

[anti -ebrake rant mode OFF]

Glad you were able to find the problem.

Please continue safe and happy Jeepin'!!

What did I do with that Joe button??? I now it's around here somewhere!

FWIW, I'm sort of with you Joe. My CJ7 had no parking brake. My truck doesn't have it connected, and Blue had his but due to the grease I didn't really use it. I did use it occasionally when I was idling and it might roll. I did leave it on on one trail ride and it burned through the grease and I had a nice parking brake for a bit after that.
And when I drove Blue home from Somerville with no brakes, the parking brake didn't help too much when I wanted it but again, the grease. If it was properly maintained...
But then to say

If you keep all items maintained including the parking brake and associated parts, then there is nothing to worry about.

And I prefer to call it a parking brake instead of an emergency brake. I feel more confident in it with that name.